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Soviet Tirpitz
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Author:  OnionSpider13 [ July 25th, 2016, 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Soviet Tirpitz
Ok I promised to do this a while ago, and now I’ve finally done it. This was inspired by Sauragnmon’s Soviet Tirpitz build posted on the What If Modelers forum. A couple things to note, there are four rotary S-300F launchers behind the rear SS-N-12, and some SA-N-9 launchers behind the forward SS-N-12. The area cut out from the superstructure for the rear 15cm turret was filled in and that area used for the SA-N-9 launchers. The area underneath the catapult was filled in and that deck area extended, allowing enough space to land helicopters on either side of the hangar area. I don’t have my Bismarck book on me right now, so I’m not sure what area is being sacrificed under these decks by installing VLS. Another concern that maybe one of you can answer for me is whether the 38cm turrets can be directed by any of the Soviet radar currently onboard? I noticed that the original designer omitted the 10.5m rangefinders on the foretop and aft control center, and the 7m rangefinder on the conning tower. I’m aware of another modeler planning on doing a 1985 NATO Tirpitz, so once that is completed I would like to generate and upload that drawing as well. At the bottom of the post I’ll link the original scale model on the other forum.

Here’s the loadout:
4x 380mm SK C/34 turrets (directors missing…)
4x 130mm AK-130 turrets (2x Kite Screech)
4x 30mm AK-230 turrets (4x Bass Tilt)
8x S-300F Fort rotary launchers (1x Top Dome)
2x SA-N-7 Gadfly launchers (6x Front Dome)
4x SA-N-9 Gauntlet launchers (2x Cross Swords)
8x SS-N-12 Bazalt launchers (1x Front Door)
2x RBU-6000
1x Top Pair
3x Palm Frond
4x Kamov Ka-27 Helix

[ img ]

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php ... 839.0.html
Author:  Keisser [ July 25th, 2016, 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
Why is it called "Tirpitzski"?
Author:  citizen lambda [ July 25th, 2016, 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
Whoa, where to start...
Firstpoint is, I guess, that you didn't take the most up-to-date components to kitbash. The Kinzhal director radars stick out like a sore tooth since Gollevainen posted a ship with a new version a week ago.
I can't vouch for the Tirpitz, but it's clear enough that you built up from Maomatic's 1941 version, automatically excluding all the IRL wartime upgrades to the baseline ship, which should still be relevant to your concept.

There is (much) more to be said on the kitbash design itself, which I will touch on later on. In the meantime, two questions:
- Did you set out to faithfully reproduce the physical model kit you linked, or do you take some leeway in design?
- Which timeframe is this design supposed to happen in, if any? Right now it is all over the place.

Edit: Also, doesn't this belong with the Personal Designs so far?
Author:  Colosseum [ July 25th, 2016, 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
Exceedingly cool. I don't know much about any of the systems involved, but from a pure "awesome" point of view, you've nailed it. The Shipbucket style is also well represented here.

These kinds of fun projects are one of the many reasons I really love the concept of Shipbucket.
Author:  OnionSpider13 [ July 25th, 2016, 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
Quote:
Why is it called "Tirpitzski"?
Because the storyline devised by the original modeler states that it is a Soviet capture at the end of WWII. Also, it looks like the What If Modelers forum is down right now...
Quote:
Firstpoint is, I guess, that you didn't take the most up-to-date components to kitbash. The Kinzhal director radars stick out like a sore tooth since Gollevainen posted a ship with a new version a week ago.
I found almost all of my Soviet parts on wkstl's Soviet parts lists, uploaded a couple months ago. They seemed very comprehensive and well-researched, so when I found them I assumed that to be the best source. I'll update the Kinzhal.
Quote:
I can't vouch for the Tirpitz, but it's clear enough that you built up from Maomatic's 1941 version, automatically excluding all the IRL wartime upgrades to the baseline ship, which should still be relevant to your concept.
Yes, I'll admit that I took a shortcut here. I PMed Maomatic asking if he had any blank drawings available for me to use, making my process easier than cleaning off all the old components pixel by pixel, and a cleaner 1941 drawing was provided. It was also a lot easier to use this than one of the later camouflaged drawings.
Quote:
- Did you set out to faithfully reproduce the physical model kit you linked, or do you take some leeway in design?
For now, yes. The intent was to faithfully reproduce the physical model kit. There are a few other layouts/refits that I would like to do, but those are for later.
Quote:
- Which timeframe is this design supposed to happen in, if any? Right now it is all over the place.
Belief seems to be more easily suspended on that forum than on this, so I believe the part selection was simply whatever the designer had on hand. Again, this was only translating the physical model to a 2-D Shipbucket drawing.
Quote:
Edit: Also, doesn't this belong with the Personal Designs so far?
Alternate History seemed like the most logical place to me when I posted it, but I can move it I need to...once I figure out how. Is that an admin thing, or can us common-folk do it?
Quote:
Exceedingly cool. I don't know much about any of the systems involved, but from a pure "awesome" point of view, you've nailed it. The Shipbucket style is also well represented here.
Thanks! It was really fun to do!
Author:  Colosseum [ July 25th, 2016, 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
I moved it for you, generally speaking the "alternate universe" forum is for entire AU scenarios whereas the Personal Designs forum is for one-offs and what-ifs.
Author:  citizen lambda [ July 25th, 2016, 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
OK, good to have some more background to work with. From the original post, I had assumed as well that it was as much a drawer-scraping kitbash as a thought-out desing. Those are harder to do in plastic than in pixels anyway. :)

If you want to dig into the design a bit more, let's look at the parts used and assume a late-70s-early-80s refit. Also, let's not question what happened to a captured/reparations Tirpitz in between.
There are a few big sticking points I wanted to address first:
- The Bazalt tubes abeam of C turret . How are they going to take the pressure from the main guns? Based on US experience on the Iowas, you have to be careful about the interactions between missile launchers and big-gun blast pressure. Same goes for the RBUs below B turret. I might be ovely cautious, but I would only put secondary artillery close to the big guns and concentrate the missiles near the center.
- The SAM suite is beyond redundant, even to Soviet capital ship standards. We can talk about the Fort and where you can fit the missile silos, but besides that I would get rid of the Uragan/Gadfly (which would need blast shields somewhere BTW) and concentrate on the Kinzhal to buff up short-range coverage against saturation attacks. Consider you have a big pricey hull, and take a look at the SAM outfit on contemporary Soviet cruisers and carriers.
- On a related note, I see Drum Tilt directors, but I can't catch the CIWS that go with them. Again, such a ship would need something like 4 AK-630 pairs for close-in protection.
- And lastly on that topic, I don't see anything like an ECM fit. Again, capital ship, big target, splurge on close-in protection. Since the upgraded outfit has a distinctive Kiev/Kirov feel to it, I think you can give it a real Soviet look by going with the Side Globes+ RumTub array from the Slava/Kirov/Kiev... centered around the main stack.

Other minor points in no particular order:
- Any reason to get rid of the comms mast and all antennas?
- Is the side helipad telescopic or something? The plastic version has it turned sideways for an approach path at 3o'clock, which I can't see working while underway. If you want helos, a full-on aft battery conversion might be in order.
- Also, is there a helo hangar in there somewhere? (I haven't found an airplane hangar on the Tirpitz that you could convert) scratch that, I found the hangars, one of which you can probably get rid of in favor of SAM silos or flag headquarters, but there is (visibly not enough place between stack and superstructure for Ka-27s) except if you just winch them sideways on a rail before unfolding the rotors.
- Realistically (and based on the Iowas again) there should be some trace left of the main battery directors. I can't imagine how you would rewire the legacy machinery for FC from a Kite Screech or similar. So either keep the Tirpitz stereo-RF sets and stack some radar antennas on top as a custom refit, or repurpose some older Soviet stuff that would work better with this type of gun, like maybe the Yakor aka Wasp Head/Sun Visor combo.
- The full gun battery indicates you want to stick to a surface warfare mission. The bridge and rear masts should be bristling with surface-search radars and maybe more modern optronics. I don't have a source for that, but the Squeeze Box EOFC is common to the artillery-heavy Sovremenniy destroyer and the Ivan Rogov LST, which makes me think it is intended for NGFS. Wouldn't that make sense here?
- Without going too far into the history of the ship in Soviet hands, less modern equipment would make some sense as they could come from an earlier upgrade. I don't see how the decades-old Tirpitz would get priority on the already hard-to-come-by AK-130s and Kinzhal sets.

Overall an interesting effort, well executed so far, though it naturally suffers from the limitations of the plastic original. If you're ready to give it a whirl to achieve a more believable design, I for one will be happy to help bash it into shape, and I am sure others will chime in!
In the meantime, may I suggest you take a look at older IRL Soviet gun cruiser upgrades like the Pr.68U or Pr.70E?

On my end I will see if I can find any docs about similar Soviet conversion projects that might fit in.
Edit: not luck finding a hybrid gun/missile armored cruiser project that could help. There were a few early all-missile ships on legacy cruiser hulls that might give pointers, like the ASW Project 1126 and the SAM conversion of Project 82, but that's mostly moot if you aim to keep the gun battery.
Author:  maomatic [ July 25th, 2016, 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
I have to second what Colo already said.

I've got no clue about modern era systems and equipment, but it looks pretty cool indeed!

Keep it up!
Author:  OnionSpider13 [ July 27th, 2016, 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
Sure, let's do it! I've done a bit of research on USN design but know barely anything about Soviet design, so this will be a learning experience for me.
Quote:
How are they going to take the pressure from the main guns?
Not very well, I presume.
Quote:
get rid of the Uragan/Gadfly
Aye aye.
Quote:
I see Drum Tilt directors, but I can't catch the CIWS that go with them
There are actually four AK-230s already positioned, but they are hidden very well. You can barely see the barrels above the armor surrounding the old 37mm AA positions. One position is below the aft Cross Swords, and the other is directly behind Bruno. I'm posting an image below where you can see them better.
Quote:
Any reason to get rid of the comms mast and all antennas?
Absolutely not (other than "plastic model").
Quote:
Is the side helipad telescopic or something?
Indeed it is.

So to summarize, you propose the following changes:
-Remove Gadly
-Move Bazalt, Kinzhal, and RBU midship
-Move mid AK-130 aft
-Add ECM suite, comms mast and antennas, and more surface search radar. There are a few Palm -Fronds up by the Top Pair, are you suggesting that I add more or replace them?
-Restore either the original or replacement main battery directors
-Possibly replace aft battery with helicopter facilities
-What about moving the AK-230s to the farthest fore and aft 10.5cm positions? Especially if replace the midships heli facilities with the different missile systems?

[ img ]
Author:  citizen lambda [ July 28th, 2016, 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Soviet Tirpitz
OnionSpider13 wrote:
Sure, let's do it! I've done a bit of research on USN design but know barely anything about Soviet design, so this will be a learning experience for me.
Good! Then hopefully we'll all learn something along the way! As I have long cherished my ignorance of 3rd-Reich designs, I can only come out knowing more about the Tirpitz than I currently do.

If you want to get a feel of earlier (and lesser) Soviet missile upgrades of gun cruisers, check out Golly's Projekt 70E, Projekt 68U1 and Projekt 68U2.
OnionSpider13 wrote:
There are actually four AK-230s already positioned, but they are hidden very well. You can barely see the barrels above the armor surrounding the old 37mm AA positions. One position is below the aft Cross Swords, and the other is directly behind Bruno. I'm posting an image below where you can see them better.
OK, now I see them, just peeking above their cover like they're sitting in a trench or something :D
About CIWS:
- A ca.1980 configuration with Bazalt and Kinzhal calls for AK-630 rather than -230, which is 60s vintage. At the very least, Kinzhal and AK-230 don't belong together, particularly on a capital ship.
- On large ships, AK-630s work in pairs on the same arcs with a common director, mostly to enhance volume of fire. The Slava is a good example, with one pair each side abeam the mainmast and one pair on the forecastle. Also look at this 80s Kresta refit for an example of a mid-life addition of AK-630s. Hint: some under-deck volume is required.
- Seeing how you have Kinzhal as short-range SAM; which is a distinctly late-80s system, why not directly Kortik combined CIWS instead? Reversely, Osa (SA-N-4) feels kinda more in line with the Kiev-like Bazalt installation, AK-630s and first-generation S-300F.
OnionSpider13 wrote:
Quote:
Is the side helipad telescopic or something?
Indeed it is.
Just noticed looking at a plan view that moving the Bazalts towards the center will result in clashes with the helipad... At the very least, some unwieldy exhaust shielding/diversion.
On that topic/area, do you know what kind of armor is in place on the midships lower superstructure, behind the 10.5s? The area is the typical battleship staggered deckhouse, which doesn't go very well with massive missile tubes. Level of armor will tell us how easily this can be reshaped.
OnionSpider13 wrote:
So to summarize, you propose the following changes:
-Remove Gadly
-Move Bazalt, Kinzhal, and RBU midship
-Move mid AK-130 aft
-Add ECM suite, comms mast and antennas, and more surface search radar. There are a few Palm -Fronds up by the Top Pair, are you suggesting that I add more or replace them?
-Restore either the original or replacement main battery directors
-Possibly replace aft battery with helicopter facilities
-What about moving the AK-230s to the farthest fore and aft 10.5cm positions? Especially if replace the midships heli facilities with the different missile systems?
Once again, that's just my personal take on the design, depends what you are looking for.
Let's first separate the mandatory:
- High-end ECM fit (forgot to mention a pair of PK-2 chaff launchers)
- Comprehensive CIWS fit (see above)
- Some functional gunfire director
- Restore comms mast of some sort
from the optional/my gut feeling:
- Streamline the SAM fit
- Reshuffle the weapons to account for main gun blast
- Better (not more) surface target-acquisition radar
- Dedicate part of the floatplane facilities to new systems

...and then let's take a step back and try to figure out what this ship is supposed to do in the first place? What's the main mission of our upgraded Tirpitz? I can see several at first glance:
1) Old-school gun-based surface warfare and landing support
This mostly requires to improve self-defense systems and leave the gun battery in place
2) Modernized surface action with guns and AShMs
Part of the main battery may need to go to make space for high-end missile systems
3) All-around modern task force lead with added air cover
Ditto, added long-range SAM umbrella, bigger radar, more helos
4) Complete refit as missile cruiser, removing the main gun battery
At that stage, you might as well make an aircraft carrier out of it ;)

Every major mission system you add (SAMs, helos, AShMs) take that much place form the original, very specialized and kinda cramped, system layout.

Let's consider for now an emphasis on surface warfare, with either gun or missile.
Seeing how space is at a premium for the Bazalt in the current version, I'm not sure it will escape unscathed. For a more plausible but less dramatic design, I suggest either:
1) Downgrade the AShMs to short-range Termits or Urans, Moskit tops, firing both aft and fore from the centerline (below the helipad). That way, you get to keep the guns.
2) Emphasize the AShMs and convert half of the gun battery (preferably aft) to a massive trainable fit with reloads like on the Kynda RKRs.
In both cases, keep some helicopter setup for OTH targetting, and splurge on short-range SAMs, CIWS and ECM. Area SAMs and air-search radars are optional in both cases.

Again, I'm just spitballing based on what I think is feasible, feel free not to be constrained by my party-pooping if you prefer shooting for something overtly over-the-top!

I'll try to put together a draft or two of what I have in mind.
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