Nihon Kaigun 1946

Actually that would more likely make the installation heavier as you're increasing the amount of armour needed for the turrets, adding additional barbettes which require additional strengthening in the hull to support, etc.

One of the reasons why triples and quads became appealing was because they increased the firepower you could have whilst reducing the overall weight to be allocated to mounts.

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Hi Denodon,

Yeah, I'd forgotten that in the KM plan for switching Gneisenau's guns they'd lengthen the forecastle.

Also, as I understand it, one other reason to go to for triples/quads was to shorten the armoured box required - fewer turrets, shorter length, less weight of armour - is that correct?

Regards,
Adam

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NSWE: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5695

I've saved both Constitution's and Colo's original Alaska, it is immediately noticeable that the hull of CB-8 is longer (by 10 meters) that that of CB-1, so it is nt exactly the same hull. Later I'll try to make an SS report to see if it works.

Yes by reducing your turret number, you also reduce the number of magazines and can place them closer together which will in that case reduce the length of belt as well as the size of the 'armoured box' that you would have around your magazines.

The concentration of all heavy guns forward like the Dunkerques and Nelsons helped further by placing them closer together. This did however bring the issue of possibility of a single shell being able to disable the main armament entirely if it knocked the turrets out.

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And here is it: other than the 10-meter stretch shown in the drawing she had to be slightly beamier but she works fine. And she can be equipped with anti-torpedo bulkheads too! (something the Alaskas did not had).
Same range, same top speeed, same armor values (except for increasedturret and barbettes thickness) as the Alaska.
CB-08 constitution, U.S.A. Large Cruiser/Battlecruiser laid down 1942 (Engine 1943)

Displacement:
32.244 t light; 34.692 t standard; 37.846 t normal; 40.368 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(841,30 ft / 821,85 ft) x 98,43 ft x (30,38 / 31,92 ft)
(256,43 m / 250,50 m) x 30,00 m x (9,26 / 9,73 m)

Armament:
9 - 14,02" / 356 mm 50,0 cal guns - 1.457,36lbs / 661,05kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1943 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5,00" / 127 mm 38,0 cal guns - 59,33lbs / 26,91kg shells, 450 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
52 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm 56,0 cal guns - 2,11lbs / 0,96kg shells, 4.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1941 Model
13 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
42 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 70,0 cal guns - 0,27lbs / 0,12kg shells, 9.000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
42 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 14.424 lbs / 6.543 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,98" / 228 mm 461,94 ft / 140,80 m 14,96 ft / 4,56 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 7,68 ft / 2,34 m 14,96 ft / 4,56 m
352,23 ft / 107,36 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 86% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2,01" / 51 mm 461,94 ft / 140,80 m 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 91,86 ft / 28,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15,0" / 380 mm 5,00" / 127 mm 14,0" / 356 mm
2nd: 0,63" / 16 mm 0,63" / 16 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 6,02" / 153 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 14,02" / 356 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 183.986 shp / 137.253 Kw = 33,00 kts
Range 12.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.676 tons

Complement:
1.356 - 1.763

Cost:
£21,284 million / $85,135 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2.738 tons, 7,2%
- Guns: 2.738 tons, 7,2%
Armour: 10.784 tons, 28,5%
- Belts: 2.701 tons, 7,1%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 788 tons, 2,1%
- Armament: 2.205 tons, 5,8%
- Armour Deck: 4.750 tons, 12,6%
- Conning Tower: 340 tons, 0,9%
Machinery: 4.698 tons, 12,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.823 tons, 36,5%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.602 tons, 14,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,5%
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46.710 lbs / 21.187 Kg = 33,9 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 6,5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 16,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 45 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,83

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,539 / 0,547
Length to Beam Ratio: 8,35 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30,93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 28,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 22,20%, 33,50 ft / 10,21 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
- Aft deck: 26,10%, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m, 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
- Quarter deck: 21,70%, 17,72 ft / 5,40 m, 20,34 ft / 6,20 m
- Average freeboard: 19,96 ft / 6,08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,5%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145,5%
Waterplane Area: 57.244 Square feet or 5.318 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 188 lbs/sq ft or 920 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,00
- Longitudinal: 1,02
- Overall: 1,00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
0,83 at seakeeping kinda sucks, yet at the same time if I try to make an SS report of the real Alaskas I get 0,75, which is even worse....

BB1987 wrote:

The SS tool isn't good at all, I have stopped using it at all, the "SS"-program doesn't take in account that there are several different hull types... On cruiser doesn't necessary have the same hull than other cruiser. hell even two sister ship is often not totally similar, some larger sister ships can be different in length due to how the ship s welded or when it was build.. metal moving, metal quality, and many other factors. Even Here in Norway we have two local boat's (catamaran) both are exactly similar, except one difference: one of them is 5 tons heavier then the other one and 1 knot slower to...

emperor_andreas wrote:

Constitution as commissioned, February 1945.

In early May 1948, the U.S. Navy began decommissioning the Constitution-class ships, and all had left active service by mid-May 1949. Constellation was scrapped in July 1962, with Antietam and Gettysburg following her in February and April 1963. Shiloh, and Appomattox were both scrapped in May 1963. On 13 May 1962, Constitution was struck from the Navy List, refurbished, and towed to Boston to begin a nice long retirement with Old Ironsides as her neighbor. That November, America was also struck from the Navy List and upon orders from President John F. Kennedy was towed to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where she became part of a large waterfront attraction. The mere thought of scrapping a ship that bore the country's very name was abhorrent to the young President, and the old ship's arrival in Philadelphia brought a surge in both tourism and jobs. On 13 January 1963, Liberty was struck from the Navy List, refurbished, and towed to New York City, where she was moored at a specially-constructed pier on Liberty Island, her last official assignment being to "...guard the Lady In the Harbor".

In late July 1997, in coinciding with Old Ironsides' 200th Birthday, both Old and New Ironsides were made fully operational, whereupon they headed to the outer reaches of Boston Harbor together, and both fired salutes to the nation. 11 September 2001 also saw a notable occurrence in the history of the remaining ships of the class. As New York and the nation was in chaos, Naval Reservists were ordered out to Liberty Island, where they boarded the old cruiser and reactivated her antiaircraft guns. The ship remained on semi-activation until mid-November 2001, when she was once more stood down. She and Liberty Island itself remained closed to the public for nearly a year before reopening in July 2002.

I would dearly like to see a plan view of this ship...

On the surface, it looks nice. But it is sorely deficient in details...

1. This ship supposedly comes after CB-3 - for which the forward-most 20mm tubs were deleted in favor of a 40mm quad with attendant Mk.51 director. You can find this on my CB-3 drawings. I would expect CB-8 to have incorporated this improvement.

2. I'm no expert on guns but it appears that the turrets have been lengthened to accommodate the new guns. I would do more than this (perhaps design a new turret). Right now it's very hard to tell these from the 12"/50 Mark 8 three gun turret aboard the real CBs.

3. You should pick a "style" of 20mm gun tub reinforcement and stick with it. I prefer the blank, straight-sided, non reinforced splinter shields aboard Alaska to the reinforced shields aboard the Iowas. I'm not even sure the Iowa drawing has the correct shields anyway.

4. You have used an Iowa style superstructure, but it's (oddly) the "1943" vintage, with a catwalk around the conning tower only. By 1945 all of the Iowas had received enclosed bridges around their conning towers. Since this drawing essentially lifts the entire superstructure, I think it should too. Otherwise design a new forward superstructure (this would be my preferred option).

5. You are using the Mod 11-16 "square back" Mk.37 director when you should be using the Mod.17 "cockpit" director (the most modern). These were fitted to CB-2 (but not CB-1 which received Mod 11-16 director shields), and I'm sure CB-8 would have received them as well.

6. This ship would be fitted with the Mk.12/22 radar combination on the Mk.37 directors (you are only showing Mk.12s). The Mk.22 height finder was added to all Mk.12 installations whenever possible.

7. You have the prominent wind deflectors fitted to Iowa's ship control station mounted ahead of your forward Mk.37 director. Again, I think this is an area where a plan view would really help. I can't make sense of what I'm seeing.

8. You have the old misscaled Mk.3 Mod.2 "FC" fire control radar mounted above the conning tower. This is a mid-war feature (at best), and by 1945, all Mk.40 gun directors in the conning towers were fitted with the Mk.27 radar instead. Take the Mk.40 gun director from the USN parts sheet.

9. You have a radio DF loop above the superstructure. I'm not sure this is a problem, but there's a DAK-2 loop aft of the air defense level (in its original spot from CB-3). They are duplicates...

10. You have a TDYa S-band jamming receiver antenna aft of the foremast in its radome, but no actual jammer radomes along the 01 level amidships (in their usual position).

11. You are using the older style SG radar platforms when you should use the newer type mounted aboard CB-2 and later to CB-1 during a refit.

12. You have an early TDY jammer ahead of the air defense level. This was a simple corner reflector mounted aboard fleet units before the trainable version on its 10AFJ pedestal was introduced. A ship this "modern" will have the trainable TDY mounted somewhere high up in the upperworks - I would place it where the current DAK-2 loop is located behind the air defense level. Please note that a single CAGW-66132 "sword" antenna is required to sample the enemy reaction to jamming, and was included by default with the TDY installation. That sword antenna would be located likely ahead of the conning tower, bracketed to the forward edge of the catwalk and facing forward, shielded from the TDY's emissions.

13. You have given this ship a very odd antenna rigging arrangement. The CBs were fitted with TBM, TAJ, TDE, and a few others that used the long wire antennas strung between the fore and aft yards as the driven element during transmitting. I'm not sure the current arrangement is actually long enough to be efficient in the radio bands required.

14. The aft pole mainmast needs to be removed. Just ahead of it is the yardarm support on the after side of the funnel... this would be the location built up to house an SP radar. They would not add a new mainmast.

15. Your new mainmast has its own set of halyards running to a yardarm arranged similarly to the Iowa class. So you now have TWO sets of halyards aft! That doesn't make any sense. Now that I look at it, I notice you have omitted the signal flag halyards running to the flag bags on the 03 level. You will need to show these for sure.

16. You have the old American flag flying from the mainmast, but a naval jack flying from the jackstaff. This was an arrangement that would never have been flown. Whilst underway, ships flew the national ensign from the mainmast - while at port, the national ensign was flown from the stern. I would suggest a staff aft of the crane.

17. You have left the crane supports from CB-1 intact just ahead of the after Mk.38 director tower. These are not necessary as there's no amidships boat crane anymore that would need to be tied down to the supports while underway.

18. The arrangement of the halyards reminds me that there's no obvious flag bags on your after/emergency conning station. All USN fleet units incorporated an emergency conn aft that could be manned if the forward superstructure had been shot away - on the CBs, this was immediately aft of the funnel, next to the aft set of flag bins. This ship does not appear to have one.

19. You have used the old seaplane handling crane (which sucks and is out of scale) - please replace it.

20. You are missing the Nancy IR beacons on the air defense level (pull from the 1945 CB drawings, located just below the upper fighting lights).

21. The latest CB revisions include the DAS wire antenna for LORAN receiving, running from the SK platform to the 07 level above the forward ship control station. This ship would likely receive that as well.

22. Whip placement is decent (fairly standard), but I might reduce the amount on the forward superstructure. Most of those have been moved to the air defense level.

23. You have moved the whip originally bracketed to the forward side of the funnel to the aft side. It's oddly placed in that it appears "above" the halyards, when it should appear behind them. I would remove it entirely.

24. You have left the brackets for the energy transmitting wire antennas running from the 02 level aft up to the aft Mk.38 tower and then finally to the funnel. They are the L-shaped brackets that tied antenna rigging to the superstructure.

25. The Mk.57 director arrangement is very odd on this ship - you only have one placed aft, when there should be at least two on either side of the ship. I would add a tub above the superstructure and add another. I might also experiment with the Mk.63 GFCS on this ship - placing the Mk.51 Mod.6 directors in a few tubs with the Mk.28 radar mounted above some of the 40mm quads. You can find that system in the USN parts sheet. It was a very modern (1945) system that would likely have appeared on these ships had they existed.

26. You might incorporate some of the late-war features typically seen on the 5"/38 gun mounts. Mount captain sight hoods would be a welcome addition during AA warfare. It seems a lot of post-war ships had life rafts tied to the side of the 5" mounts as well. Bloomers would add some complexity, which would be welcome on the parts bashed from Iowa which are a bit bare.

27. I see no TBS antennas. This ship would likely have two on the yardarms.

28. The forward edges of the armor belt don't match up.

All for now...

edit:

Non detail wise, I see some serious topweight issues here... the large forward superstructure is the main culprit. The Alaskas were already overloaded (like all of the USN surface combatants by 1945), but you have taken the forward superstructure of the Iowa and placed it on a (granted, lengthened) Alaska hull. I would suggest deepening the draft to account for this.

Heartiest thanks go to my dear friend BB1987 for helping me with these revisions.

I'm a kitbasher at heart, so an original bridge structure is NOT going to happen; if I were to do only original works, my permanent residence would be in the Beginner Drawings section, and achieving the level of detail from "original Shipbucket" days would be a major achievement for me. If anyone has a problem with it, I'm sorry. All I can do is offer a friendly hug and my most earnest hopes that tomorrow will be a better day for you. (Really, I mean this.) Also, no plan view will be forthcoming, at least from my end. If anyone wants to do a plan view of her...well, rock on, my friend!

Anywho, I hope these fixes bring smiles to some faces.

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The Official IJN Ships & Planes List

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If you would actually challenge yourself you could produce very nice drawings. You clearly understand how it all works - so why not give it a shot? Start with an original bridge structure for this ship and then move onto new stuff.

Colosseum wrote:

I'm working on other challenges first. Namely, my IJN research that I've been doing for 17 years now.

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The Official IJN Ships & Planes List

#FJB

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