Shipbucket

Hi Regia Marina:

Good beguining with your AU nation! May I make some comments about your ironclad? First of all, in 1871 the disaster of HMS Captain was still very fresh in the mind of all naval designers. I think that the metacentric high in CS Terror is excesive. Furthermore, the towers are of the Ericson type, which were taller than the towers designed by Cowper Coles (with a substantial part of the revolving mechanism under deck). And worsening the general aspect is the full set of sails in 3 masts, and also a full complement of 12 12 inch guns (if they are Armstrong's, a 12 inch gun was 600 pounder, each one of 35 tons, heavier than the artillery of HMS Alexandra, which were mainly 10 inch, 300 pounder, 25 tons). An aditional issue: Check the designed speed: The USS Wampanoag, with a much lighter construction and less beam, had almost all the internal space for the boilers and engine, and only had a max. speed of 17 kts.

I think that you can make CS Terror a viable desing cuting off one deck (the gun deck), cuting the topgallant of your main mast, and removing the fore and mizzen masts. Reducing the number (no more than 8 - 6) and caliber (40 or 64 pounder) of your secondary battery. And if you want more stability, putting Coles towers. Good luck, and cheers!

Thanks I appreciate the advice! I see now how similar it looks to HMS Captain. If the turrets were Coles-type that would make the ship more stable? I will see if I can revise the design based on your advice. I planned to fit all pole-type military masts but figured I should wait a bit, since they are a little too far ahead based on the current era. The data that I found for the Model 1864 RML gun said they weighed 25-tons... it clearly was not correct unless we have 2 different 12-inch guns, which is unlikely but possible.

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Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

Hi Regia Marina.
Both of us are correct, Armstrong's 12 inch RML gins were both of 35 tons (1871) and 25 tons (1864)! And I was wrong, 10 inch gun weighted only 18 tons. My sincere appologies. There was an interesant article writen in the 1870s, about correcting the faults of HMS Captain. And the solution was very similar to HMS Dreadnough! Without sails and without the topgallant the mainmast will look very similar to a signal mast of the 1880s. Sometimes you win with less ! Cheers.

Interesting! Well, I edited the backstory of the Terror and Defender a little so as to incorporate a little talk about the design flaws and stability issues. I am planning a class of 3 smaller center-battery ironclads as a successor to the Terror-class. I am currently working on the drawing and will try and type up the backstory tomorrow or Thursday.

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Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

-A special thanks to Gunship for making such a beautiful ship for me to base my design on.

Neuse-Class Ironclads: After 1871, the Carolinian Republic had developed a naval strategy that hinged on a large battle fleet of ironclad vessels. An initial fleet plan was introduced, based on five primary battleships. The Terror and the Defender formed the primary branch of the fleet, but they were too unstable on the open seas to do much good. Their main design fault was that they mounted heavy turrets, broadside guns, and a full set of sails on a hull that was not up to the task of supporting it. So, in 1871, a design committee was sent to be trained in Britain by specialists at Robert Napier and Sons in Glasgow, Scotland. Also, the Carolinian government, especially Congress, were not about to miss out on an opportunity to support emerging industries, especially shipyards and steel plants. Both the Carolina Shipbuilding Company and the Charleston Navy Yard had sufficiently expanded to handle construction of up to 3 large ironclads of up to 3,500 tons. Alongside the yards, the Raleigh Ordnance Works had developed a 10-inch gun of reputable quality with a modern breech-loading mechanism. The design committee was formed in 1871 to evaluate the very best in ship components and bring them together to create a modern ironclad battleship that could compete with the top-of-the-line ships in both the Union and Confederate fleets. The new class displaced roughly 3,100 tons and was 225 feet long. Beam was set at 20 feet, while draft was up to 17 feet, which caused some problems with certain harbors. The armament took quite a while to determine, but was eventually laid out as 8 x 10-inch RBL guns in broadside, and they carried a secondary battery of 4 x 64-pounder RML guns. Four Hotchkiss 37mm revolving guns were carried for close quarters actions, as were six 1-pounder guns. Not initially carried, but later equipped, were four drop-collars for 14-inch torpedoes. The ships were driven by 14 Oval-shaped high-pressure coal-fired boilers driving two Penn and Co. Direct-Acting trunk-type engines (for the last time in a Carolinian capital ship.) Two were laid down at the Carolina Shipbuilding Company while the other was laid down in Charleston at the Navy Yard in 1872. Completed in November of 1873, they were commissioned into the fleet in December of that year, a Christmas present for the fleet. They served through the 1870's and early 1880's, participating in several peacekeeping actions in Cuba and the Caribbean, including shelling Havana harbor and transporting a force of 60 marines to Haiti to assist in peacekeeping actions there. They were refitted in 1884, receiving a new armament of 8-inch RBL guns and had her 64-pounder RML guns removed. Light armament was increased dramatically, including the addition of 8 x 1-pounders, 6 x 3-pounders, 2 x 37mm Hotchkiss revolvers, and 6 x 7.92mm Machine guns. They served as armored cruisers in this form until decommissioned in 1892, when they were replaced by much more modern ships.


Specifications 1873:
Type: Broadside ironclad
Length: 225 feet
Beam: 20 feet
Draft: 17 feet
Speed: 14 knots
Machinery: 14 Oval-shaped coal-fired high-pressure boilers, 2 x direct-acting trunk-type engines
Armament: 8 x 10-inch RBL guns, 4 x 64-pounder RML Guns, 4 37-mm Hotchkiss revolvers.
Armor: 6-inch belt, 10-inch battery, 1.5-inch deck, 11-inch conning tower.
Specifications 1891:
Type: Armored Cruiser
Length: 225 feet
Beam: 21 feet
Draft: 19 feet
Speed: 17 knots
Machinery: 12 x Circular coal-fired boilers, 2 x Compound-type engines
Armament: 8 x 8-inch RBL QF guns, 2 x 37-mm Hotchkiss revolvers, 6 x 3-pounders, 8 x 1-pounders, 6 x 7.92-mm machine guns, 4 x 14-inch torpedo drop-collars.
Armor: 5-inch belt, 8-inch battery, 1-inch deck, 12-inch conning tower.

NEXT: Army artillery, I might hijack some of Redhorse's excellent drawings for firearms from his AU. Torpedo boats, new generation of ships appearing in the 1875-1885 decade, brief history update.

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Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

-History 1875-1885:

General history: By 1875, the Carolina's had slashed it's army down to 50,000 active duty troops and had re-organized it in a more orderly, European fashion. Gone were the ragtag bands of men, replaced by uniformed, in-line soldiers all universally equipped with breech-loading firearms and artillery. The economy boomed as industrialization spread. Exports of cotton helped pay for expanding infrastructure and government investments. The Carolinian government spent heavily on the construction of a nation-wide rail network and ferry lines were started up and down the coast. People began to deposit their money in large central banks that not only managed private wealth and assets but invested in business both in and out of the nation's borders. The Republic had developed an economy based on agriculture and industry, including the manufacture of iron and steel, as well as machinery and shipbuilding. The economy was still predominantly agricultural in nature, with exports of cotton, peanuts, corn, and indigo ranging among it's top products. Revenue from this trade brought with it the funds to modernize and expand the navy. The fleet had disposed of and/or paid off most of the old civil war-era ships, which were largely just converted civilian vessels. By 1871, the Carolinian fleet had taken possession of the Terror and Defender, but the Admiralty was greatly displeased with the new ships. They were terribly unstable, and were much too similar to the HMS Captain to be of any use. For the Carolinians, they served as a reminder of the dangers of expanding too quickly and were viewed as unjustified expenses. The Neuse-class somewhat remedied the issue, but they too were very expensive and were rapidly reaching obsolescence just a few years after commissioning. Running short of funding, yet still needing parity with the other regional naval powers, the Carolinas initiated naval talks in Charleston in 1875. The participants were: the Union, the Confederacy, Mexico, the Carolinas, and Great Britain acted as mediator. The UK was still sympathetic to the Confederacy more than the Union, especially since all they had outlawed slavery in coordination with the Carolinas and Mexico. The agreement allowed the following: The Union could build four first-class ironclads, three second-class, and two third-class, as well as an allowed expansion of 15 non-capital ships. The Confederacy was allowed five first-class ironclads, four second-class, six third-class, and an allowed expansion of 32 other vessels. The Carolinians were given two first-class ironclads and could replaced all their existing capital ships with new ones any time after 1878. An allowed expansion of 24 other vessels was granted to the Carolinas. Mexico, on the other hand, had a navy of just 15 ships for her whole coastline, and was thus allowed to complete two first-class ironclads, three second-class, and one third-class. An allowed expansion of 28 vessels was granted. None of the Belligerents immediately laid down any new capital ships besides Mexico, focusing instead on building smaller craft like corvettes, sloops, gunboats, and torpedo-boats. The Mexican navy immediately allocated funding for two if it's three allowed second-class ironclads. They were monitors, nearly identical to the Peruvian navy's "Huascar". Laid down in Britain in 1876, the two ships displaced 1,500 long tons each, were equipped with a full sailing rig alongside the steam plant, and carried a main armament of 2 x 9-inch RML guns. They were commissioned in 1878, and immediately were of questionable value as other nations slipways produced much better ships. In all the other navies, torpedo-boats were developed and experimented with. The Carolinians in particular were keen on developing a design for a fast coast-defense torpedo boat and set up a contract for the production of 3 experimental vessels. They were evaluated and determined a success, despite their short range, and more torpedo boats were planned for in the future. On land, frontier expansion had nearly ended, as the USA had consumed nearly all of it's unsettled land before being stopped short by Mexico. As a concession for letting the other nations outstrip them at sea, the Union demanded that Kentucky and West Virginia be transferred to a joint occupation and all Confederate forces be removed from Washington, D.C. The Confederates agreed reluctantly, and warily increased their army strength on the Union border. As armed forces modernized and expanded, governments remained ever-watchful of each other, and the Carolinas began to reach military parity with the rest of North America, a position sought after with ever-growing threat of conflict...

Mexico's Veracruz class:


NEXT: Army field artillery and firearms, torpedo boats, all-iron ships, possibly additional ships from other nations.

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Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

-Native-class Corvette: With the amount of capital ships laid down in 1865-1875, the Carolinian Navy had expended a tremendous amount of time, money, and resources on building vessels that were not as powerful as the Navy desired. However, in the aftermath of the 1875 naval treaty, the Carolinian navy produced a design for a ship that was not an ironclad, but rather an iron-hulled, long-range cruiser/corvette. The requirement for a cruiser was not really evident at the time, but the Carolinian government had some aspirations to take possession of several key naval bases in the Caribbean and needed ships that could reach as far as Venezuela from Carolinian bases. The naval board produced a design for a ship capable of long-range travel that could still outgun anything then in service. The ship mounted a four 10-inch guns in two twin-gun Ericsson-type gun turrets, while also being equipped with a sailing rig. The design was finalized by 1877, but when it was re-evaluated later that same year, it was determined too large and far too expensive for the Carolinian navy to use effectively. Therefore, the Navy created a new design for a corvette using no sailing rig and carrying it's guns in ultra-futuristic barbettes rather than turrets. The armament was also designed to be ultra-effective, with 4 x 6-inch RBL QF guns in twin barbettes fore and aft. Secondary armament was determined as six 3-inch QF guns for use against close targets and the fast torpedo boats appearing around this time. The ships were designed to cruise as far as the Northern Brazilian coast and utilized a new circular, locally-built boiler. The vessels carried 8 of these coal-fired, high-pressure boilers in two rooms set in-line, with the engine room set directly behind them. They were the first ships to use new compound-type engines, built in England and set on elevated steel platforms, bolted down and secured to several steel beams. This design ensured that the engines could not be unsettled by any impact, however serious. The coal bunkers were arranged in rooms on either side of the boiler rooms, on the deck above, and coal was sent down to the boiler rooms by blast-proof, fire-proof chutes. The gun barbettes utilized electrically-driven traverse and elevation gear, as well as steam-powered ammunition hoists. The guns were based on a design from France, specially-built for the Carolinian Navy vessels. They could fire at around 10 shots per minute, and could out-range any guns at the time. The ammunition magazines were located below the barbettes, and could only be accessed by two heavily-armored doors that sealed off the magazine from the rest of the ship. They were the first ships to carry an electric power-generation plant from the beginning, utilizing four British-built dynamos that powered the lights, ammo handling gear, traverse and elevation mechanisms, and fans for the magazines and crew quarters (which were some of the most advanced in any non-European navy.) They were ordered and laid down at Charleston and Wilmington in 1878, two in each yard, and were named the Cherokee, Creek, Croatoan, and Catawba. They were commissioned in 1879, serving with the fleet off Cuba and Hispaniola, annihilating a Spanish torpedo boat squadron off the Haitian coast in 1881, during the Spanish-Carolinian War. Serving on the Caribbean station from 1883-1897, they were modernized in 1898, receiving new secondary guns, 18-inch torpedo tubes, new boilers, and several other updates including fire control. They were all scrapped in 1904.

_________________
Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

Sorry RegiaMarina1939 but you do need to get your crediting right. Your name comes last. Anybody elses work that you use, their nick/names come before yours. Keep it all on one line.

(Redhorse, RegiaMarina1939) - (Alvama, RegiaMarina1939).

Try this out:

AU, Carolinian Republic, Native Class Turret Ship,
CS Cherokee (TS-1879)
(Redhorse, RegiaMarina1939)

All the important information is there. Use the second line and date for the different versions/updates of the ship (TS-1879, rebuilt 1894)

I see sir. Thank you for your advice. I of course want to give the artists their due credit if I use their artwork, especially if they are as good as Redhorse and Alvama. I will make sure to consult this tip in the future.

_________________
Best regards,

RegiaMarina1939

If you use paint.net, I'll be more than happy to send you the .pdn files for my ships. It might make it easier for you to make the changes you want.

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Redhorse

Current Projects:
Republic of Texas Navy
FD Scale F-14s