Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 1 of 1  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
maxwell john
Post subject: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 27th, 2022, 3:40 pm
Offline
Posts: 53
Joined: September 23rd, 2018, 9:01 pm
Hello,
Does anyone have a chart of the organization of the Soviet Air Force, either in 1939 or 1945 (or both)? I am working on a paper about it, but I dont fully understand its structure and Niehorster, while interesting, doesnt really focus on the air force much at all.
Is it something that is central and only divided between the military districts, are they seconded to the army, I just feel like without seeing the chart by itself, I am missing something.
Likewise, what connection is there between it and the soviet naval air units, and the air defence units?
Thank you everyone, I am just curious and I hope I can figure this out!


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 27th, 2022, 5:34 pm
Offline
Posts: 10696
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 8:31 am
With some surprise I noticed, that if I have such chart(s), then I don't remember about it. :?
Best I can offer is the chart for 1943 from "The Soviet Air Force Since 1918" by John Boyd (1977).
And I guess that You're not capable of using Russian language, as otherwise You'd look in that language yourself. :P

Few notes: to begin with, you shouldn't think about VVS (or any other Soviet armed service, for that matter) in the same way you'd think about US armed services, that are completely separate and historically didn't even liked to talk to each other too much (and until 1947 were under completely separate government departments). Soviet armed forces were (and Russian are) an integrated organization, including navy (although this service slightly less than the other ones, and at times there was a separate navy people's commissariat/ministry - but in Soviet practice it meant much less than it would in US practice). For that reason, position of the VVS in the organizational structure of soviet armed forces was slightly more like of the war-time USAAF than the post-1947 USAF.

In 1940, for example, VVS command was one of 19 central institutions of People's Commissariat of Defence (and one of 6 of institutions with status of Main Administration - Glavnoye Upravlyene).

Operational assets of the air force were either under central control (like Long Range Aviation, or other units that could be designated to be under such control) or were controlled by military districts (fleets) - be it as their "own" units, or as part of air defences (under Administration of Air Defence of the People's Commissariat).
Note, that military districts and fleets in Soviet practice are combined-arms commands, a little bit like current US Unified Combatant Commands (albeit on smaller geographical scale).
Also, routine administrative/supply/etc. matters of centrally-controlled air assets would usually also be done via military district in which they were stationed, unless specified otherwise.

In the beginning of the war, each Military District HQ had an aviation command as part of its organization, and individual field armies (level below M.D.) also had their aviation commands. This structure, which was largely reminiscent of practice common in most countries during World War 1 was found to have shortcomings after Winter War and was dropped after disasters of early months of Soviet-German War. In turn, there were no longer aviation commands of M.D.'s (Fronts in wartime), but Air Armies were formed. They were subordinated to front commanders (or were part of GHQ reserve), but weren't further split between individual armies of the front and the Air Army commands were no longer part of the front HQ itself, but they could be moved from subordination of one front to another.

[ img ]


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
maxwell john
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 27th, 2022, 11:27 pm
Offline
Posts: 53
Joined: September 23rd, 2018, 9:01 pm
Indeed, Russian is not something I can speak

So its not.. really its own service as is the armed forces in the USA, because its much more.. integrated?
As in, commander of (lets say) Leningrad district, you are responsible for the Leningrad air command as well as the 7th army (Leningrad air defense command, with its own aviation units), but the commander of the Leningrad air command is subordinate to the district, not to a singular air force chain of command?

And how do the air defence and air commands interact with each other? Is it an offensive/defensive thing?

This sounds thoroughly confusing. At least the STAVKA held strategic units are slightly understandable because they are just on their own.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 28th, 2022, 5:49 am
Offline
Posts: 10696
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 8:31 am
To begin with, situation wasn't exactly the same in 1939, in 1945 and from 1950s onwards, just to note.
In practical terms, chief of VVS had more administrative than operational role for most of the period.
Basically, chief of Military District was responsible for pretty much everything that was going on in his district - from operations to recruitment. In 1939 in MD staff there was a post of air commander, like there were also posts of chiefs of artillery, air defence, engineers, signals, rear services and the like - and the MD had also in subordination field armies. Besides the air commander, each field army, as well as air defence had their own air units.

From 1942 in Fronts (in wartime MD could - and those on border were - split in 2 parts - Front HQ that would do the actual fighting and the "old" MD that would take care of administrative/rear area things behind front's immediate zone of control. In that system fronts had air armies subordinated. They were also responsible for tactical air defence over themselves. In the rear areas it was responsibility of PVO (air defence) - which over time had their own fronts (2, if I remember correctly) behind the actual frontline plus AD zones deeper behind.

And as a note, as it's beyond period You've asked about, from the 1950s, National Air Defence (equivalent of then-US ConAD) became a service on par with air force or navy (by then chiefs of land forces, air force, navy, air defence and strategic rocket forces were elevated to status of deputy ministers of defence) and chief of PVOS (together with heads of navy and strategic rocket forces) was one of few service chiefs that actually commanded his forces, which were not commanded via MD's (although MD commanders were still responsible for civil defense, and their assets, like tactical AAA/SAM and tactical aviation were to cooperate in air defence effort as needed), but via several Air Defence Districts and Separate Air Defence Armies, whose areas of responsibility didn't matched borders of MD's. Exception was 1980-1988 period when AD armies were disbanded and strategic air defence was subordinated to MD's, but it was not deemed a success and Soviets returned to old system. At the same time, chiefs of land and air forces were basically "force providers" and their units were not commanded by them, but by military districts (long range aviation was operationally controlled by Strategic Rocket Forces and heavy transport aviation was for the benefit of Airborne troops, which enjoyed lesser status than "full" services like AF or Navy, but more than just an "arm" like armored troops or engineers, for example).


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
maxwell john
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 29th, 2022, 4:05 am
Offline
Posts: 53
Joined: September 23rd, 2018, 9:01 pm
To be more specific in time period, I am looking at how the organization and structure changed between 1939 and its 1945 counterpart- which sounds complex
But effectively, the MD commander was the highest authority for all operational air units, and in the various MDs on or near the frontline, these also contained a separate air defense responsible for the rear, but again subordinate to the MD commander.
And STAVKA held units, like the strategic/heavy bombers, were not part of any MD at all


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 29th, 2022, 9:42 pm
Offline
Posts: 10696
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 8:31 am
Frankly, that's bit difficult undertaking if You're not using Russian language at all.

In wartime there were no "MD's on the frontline" unless completely by accident. On the frontline there were Fronts, MD's were in the rear.
Basically (post-1942) it looked like that: on the frontline there were Fronts (dozen-ish), each with Air Army, as well as it's own "tactical" AAA (and supporting units - observers, signals etc.) and they were responsible for their own AD (and of course their own air ops). Behind them - behind Front's immediate area of responsibility - there were Air Defence Fronts/Armies (of the PVO), and behind these were air defences in the particular MD's (in reality, due to limited range of the bombers of the period, most MD's had no real AD assets, except for those in the west and far east - opposite Japan).

Units of VGK reserve were not part of MD's quite by definition. ;)


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
maxwell john
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 30th, 2022, 2:59 pm
Offline
Posts: 53
Joined: September 23rd, 2018, 9:01 pm
Ah sounds like an absolute mess
Unfortunately, I doubt I have time to learn Russian before I have to finish my paper, do you know of any good places for further reading in English?

Also, thank you very much! This has been very fascinating and you have explained it well.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Air forcePosted: March 30th, 2022, 6:56 pm
Offline
Posts: 10696
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 8:31 am
From the Soviets' point of view, these arrangements were quite logical.
Boyd's "The Soviet Air Force Since 1918" should be fairly easy to get, but it's 1977 book, so - like most Soviet-era publications, it's somewhat outdated. In general, not being dependent on english-language publications on the topic, I must admit I'm not sure what available reading I could suggest. :(


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 1 of 1  [ 8 posts ]  Return to “Off Topic”

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]