Shipbucket

Of course they were all volunteers, Conscription wasn't brought in to Ireland, the reasons why those soldiers volunteered are complex and varied, with the Ulster/UVF joining up to defend the Union, while the Southern Irish/IVF joined to protect the Home Rule Act. That the IVF soldiers weren't well received upon their return is based off the fact that they returned to the outbreak of the War of Independence and the utterly changed public view post Rising.

As for the WW2 situation that's a completely different situation and frankly you are mixing up to different groups. Those that went to the UK and joined up weren't punished if they returned to Ireland post War, it was members of the Irish Armed Forces that had volunteered to join the Irish forces and had given an Oath to the State, that then deserted to join the UK forces. They weren't punished for joining up they were punished for deserting during an Emergency/War, something I'm sure would have been punished in any other country as well.

The punishment itself was wrong/mishandled and something that only Dev would think about, to be legally correct they should have been arrested and charged under the military law for Deserting, hell survivors of those that remained in the Irish Forces argued that very point at the time of the State's Pardon, that if they wanted an apology they would have to face military justice for the offence of desertion at the same time.

Do you want to argue the Republic's policies during the war, fair enough, but at the same time you have to accept that deserting does carry consequences no matter how right the cause was. ?If they felt the overwhelming need to fight in WW2 they shouldn't joined the Irish Forces first.

Thanks sparky42, I was only refering to WWII when mentioning the Irish volunteers who later faced prosecution; and I'll own up that I wasn't aware that they were 'technically' deserting, I was under the misaprehension that all volunteers suffered discrimination. My main reason for commenting at all is my policy to pull the steering wheel back into the center if I think the car is going onto the hard shoulder. In that mode I was concerned that it might be interpreted that any Irish (or Australian ) troops were deliberately used as 'cannon fodder', and the term 'cannon fodder' is one that does need qualifying. I own up that I belong to the school of revisionist history that does not consider the Great War to have been an avoidable folly, and that it was directed by incompetant generals sitting in French chateau's, deliberately squandering mens lives for want of any better policy. It was a horror, but if the allies had not won the world would have been a much nastier place; that is what the men who fought beleived (overwhelmingly).

I'll now bow out and leave this topic to get back on course

No problem Portsmouth, even in Ireland the matter is complicated and for many decades wasn't even talked about. I fully agree that they were harshly and wrongly treated (though since I'm an Irishman who thinks the Free State should have joined the Allies I have a minority view on the matter), but there was a legal matter over hanging the whole issue.

I agree that the loses of the Irish forces were no different than those of the other commonwealth/home islands forces, and certainly I'd have the view that the Generals failed in their leadership and that was a significant cause of the terrible losses suffered in the War.

But lets all return to the matter at hand and see what differences we could shape in Ireland.

Sparky, you are now the Co-Chair to this AU, welcome aboard, I need a real Irish perspective, and not just an Irish-American one, lol.

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"It is better to type nothing and be assumed an ass, than to type something and remove all doubt." - Me

Why thank you good sir, I'll do my best to help in anyway that I can, and looking forward to it.

After talking to Nighthunter I'm putting together a bit of a TL with some details that might create at least some of the conditions to support an Irish military like this, I'll try to have it up in a few days so everyone can pick holes in it .

In the mean time I would like to point out that there is some Irish produced aircraft that might come into this. the two examples that might come into play are the Short's Seamew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Seamew, a RN/RNVR ASW that was being built prior to the 1957 review. While it had problems (and frankly has looks only a mother could love) it had 24 production aircraft before being cancelled, Ireland could pick them up cheap and provide them with some extra ASW.

At the same time period Short's built 150 Canberra's, 18 of these were cancelled, perhaps Ireland could pick up the order or even increase it perhaps given the manufacturing capability would already have been built due to the investment of the UK already.

Now all of this would depend on how things would play out in terms of whether or not the historic investments like Short's actually happened but we can flesh that out later.

Having a look at some historic information, the Free State had a budget of £30 million in 1925, this is following 2 and a half years of the War of Independence, and nearly a year of Civil War. Furthermore you had the split of Northern Ireland and the reduction of about a third of the population (1.2 million out of 4.2 million and from what I can find about another £11 million in the NI budget in 1925.) and the reduction of the investments that the withdrawal of British Forces would have meant as well. SO I don't think that it's too much to suggest that something of around £45-£50 million from that period would be a basis for the Irish State. Also consider that Ireland might as I suggested be able to negoiate with the UK for some form of a support for spending (for example the first large infrastructure investment of the Free State cost 5 million and was the Ardnacrusha dam, something that UK had planned to do in some form before the War of Independence or some defence support)

In terms of Aircraft for the thread, before WW1 Ireland had been reduced in British planning due to the ending of the threat of French attack and concentration against the German fleet in the North Sea. However with the U boat threat Ireland became major escort units and fleet units. From 1917 onwards the USNAS had about 45 H16 planes based around Ireland (anyone know what the policies the US had for their military equipment after WW1?). In 1918 the UK had started construction of a large base in Cork of about 325 acres that was to be designed around LTA support. Given it's position I could see it being retained by the RAF as the major base, speaking of which if Ireland's relationship with the UK is better, it's likely that the treaty ports would still be in use, which means that it wouldn't take a bombing run against Belfast as the Cork harbour area would be much more at risk.

As I said up thread I could see Ireland being part of the Shadow Factory build up during the PreWar period along with perhaps something based in the Cork area as well if the base was kept. This might play into many butterflies for the UK once the outbreak of war happens, Ireland might aid in the opening battles up to the Battle of Britain, (OTL there was 10 Free State pilots in the BOB, imagine with a IAC (or RIAF depending on how the split would happen) being able to support more pilots.

Ireland would again be a major base for Convoy protection from it's entry into the war with Shorts Sunderlands and perhaps Stirlings being used as MPA aircraft. Once the US becomes involved I could see much more investment for supporting the US forces, which means significant costs that the OTL Ireland had too carry itself post war would be done.

I have some more but I thought I'd put this up and see if anyone has any opinions on it.